HAMISH MACDONALD, HOST : The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is here to talk to you this morning. Good morning, PM. ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER : Good morning, Hamish. Good to be with you. MACDONALD : Obviously, we've had that update from Phil Haines. Do you have anything additional you can let us know about with regards to Helen's condition this morning? PRIME MINISTER : She remains in a critical condition. I...
HAMISH MACDONALD, HOST : The Prime Minister, Anthony Albanese, is here to talk to you this morning. Good morning, PM. ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER : Good morning, Hamish. Good to be with you. MACDONALD : Obviously, we've had that update from Phil Haines. Do you have anything additional you can let us know about with regards to Helen's condition this morning? PRIME MINISTER : She remains in a critical condition. I had a conversation with Phil yesterday again, and he is showing extraordinary bravery. I thought it was a remarkable press conference yesterday, or statement that he and the Governor-General were able to give at The Alfred Hospital there. He is, under the circumstances, when you talk to him, he shows his resilience and strength. And when he spoke with such love about Helen's great characteristics of her heart, which is enormous, and her brain, which of course is also extraordinary. She's an intelligent, diligent local MP who is very compassionate and kind in a way that is consistent with what the Governor-General was saying yesterday in Her Excellency's statement at The Alfred. MACDONALD : Prime Minister, Federal MPs have been getting security briefings. I know you also attended a special virtual meeting this week with federal female MPs in the Labor Caucus. It was convened amid all of this sexual misogynistic threats and language being directed towards them, particularly online. We're seeing reports in the papers, though, that a lot of MPs saying that they don't actually feel that the current measures are up to scratch. Can you confirm you've heard that from your colleagues? PRIME MINISTER : Of course people are concerned, they're anxious, because just about every MP, I think, probably right across the political spectrum, has had experience, certainly all of them online, there'd be no question about that, but also experienced where they feel uncomfortable with people either in their electorate office, or outside of their electorate office, or as they're travelling around. There has been a normalisation of behaviour that can be very aggressive in a way that wasn't happening a couple of decades ago. MACDONALD: So, why is it, then, PM, that tech platforms are still not held accountable for hosting the death threats and the rape threats, in a way that a newspaper or a TV station or a radio station might be? I know this is an issue where there's sort of, there's policy debate, but in very simple terms, why are those businesses not held accountable for hosting all of those threats? PRIME MINISTER : That's a very good question, Hamish. If the ABC publishes something online, then you're accountable. But some of these tech platforms certainly need to do better in taking material down – MACDONALD : But my question is about the law. Why are they not held accountable? PRIME MINISTER : That's a very good question, Hamish, as you know – MACDONALD : But you're the Prime Minister, what's the answer? PRIME MINISTER : We have tried, Hamish, a range of measures. Next week there is, I think, a very modest Digital Duty of Care legislation before the Parliament. We'll wait and see whether it receives support. MACDONALD : But should the law be changed to make it illegal for any business, any platform, whatever they want to describe themselves as, publishers or platforms – should it be illegal for them to host death and rape threats? PRIME MINISTER : I think they need to have a responsibility to take anything down like that. Yes, that is my view. And I have, you know, we have tried to do a range of legislation. What we – MACDONALD : But do you acknowledge it hasn't worked, PM? PRIME MINISTER : I acknowledge we haven't been able to do what we wanted to do. Yes, Hamish. We, in the wake of Bondi, we had legislation about hate speech that we weren't able to get through the Parliament. Didn't receive the support of either the Coalition or The Greens political party. MACDONALD : So, are you going to have a go at this again? Are you going to try and tighten up the measures? PRIME MINISTER : What we will do is listen to the authorities, and to take advice and then to engage in debate across the Parliament to do what we can to fulfil our obligation to try to keep people safe. It is completely unacceptable that the level of threats, conflict, people have been – can I say, make this point that it was incredibly unusual for there to be people charged with threatening MPs ten years ago – MACDONALD : Sure. PRIME MINISTER : At the moment, at the moment, there are multiple, like, double digits figures of people before courts for threats made just against myself – MACDONALD: Yeah, I understand. PRIME MINISTER: Double digits. That has occurred. The amount of – when I was Deputy Prime Minister, when I was a Senior Minister in the government, I had no security. When I was Leader of the Opposition, I did not have security. Today, there is much more security necessary as a result of the assessments that are made by the security agencies about people in public life. And I think that is of regret. MACDONALD : There's obviously a patchwork of different legal frameworks across the country. Different rules for federal politicians, different protections, different rules and protections for state politicians, local politicians. This is something that we asked the Police Commissioner about on 702 back in August, about the way police in this state investigate death threats against MPs. [AUDIO GRAB STARTS] MAL LANYON, NEW SOUTH WALES POLICE COMMISSIONER: In New South Wales, the majority of offences require an intent. So, if someone is threatening or posting a comment, that would be a threat. We need to make sure that there's an intent for it. [AUDIO GRAB ENDS] MACDONALD : So, that's clearly an issue that you can make a death threat or a rape threat against a politician, and unless the police can identify intent, nothing further happens. Would you consider convening a National Cabinet to create a unified approach to what politicians across the spectrum, across every layer of government are describing? PRIME MINISTER : Hamish, if I convened a National Cabinet for everything that I would like to see consistent across platforms, we would be meeting 24 hours a day – MACDONALD : But this is a very specific moment – PRIME MINISTER: I understand – MACDONALD: And I think the public is clamouring for a strong response. I'm just wondering whether you could bring together all the various powers to create a unified approach? PRIME MINISTER : I understand that, and I support more unified approaches. It is difficult to get unified approaches in our system of government, particularly when it comes to legal frameworks, because state jurisdictions are very protective of their own systems, and that is just a reality. But what we have had is much greater cooperation between the Australian Federal Police and state jurisdictions. We do have federal authorities, including the security agencies, including ASIO, obviously as the lead, that play a role across states and territories. When an incident occurs, such as this tragic incident, we establish as a protocol now to establish a joint counter-terrorism task force, is immediately established. Those are things that have been put in place to make a difference. But the reality is, Hamish, that Parliamentarians need to, in my view, get out and about and engage with the community. Whether that be at a street festival, whether that be walking to your studios there in Parramatta, whether it be going shopping. Engaging with people is one of the things that is a strength in our democracy. I don't want to see that removed. And that requires a whole response of, as I've said, turning the temperature down. This isn't something that I've called for the first time this week. This is something that I've been talking about for many years now, unfortunately, as Prime Minister, because you could feel and look at the statistics of the rise in threats, of the nature of those threats as well, of change in behaviour that has occurred towards elected office holders. MACDONALD : Just on taking the temperature down. Our station reporter, Declan Bowring has been out talking to Sydney commuters this morning about their view of that, that idea, their perception of what you mean by that. [AUDIO GRAB STARTS] COMMUTER 1: I think that the public has a right to an opinion, but I think that when politicians hear this and bring it into formal settings, they need to be more professional about how they deliver those opinions and not make little like comments that are inflammatory. COMMUTER 2: Because the cost of living's gone up and everything. And no wonder people are angry, aren't they? It's natural. COMMUTER 3: Everyone has their opinion. You can't shut it out, you can't just make it one sided and just listen to certain people and not listen to others. [AUDIO GRAB ENDS] MACDONALD : I think a lot of people would like to know what you mean by turning the temperature down. PRIME MINISTER : Being able to have disagreements and debate, but to do so in a way that is respectful. You can have very different views and that is so important in our democracy, that people are able to have passionate and robust debate, but ones that is constructive so that we talk about the issue rather than denigrating the people who are involved. MACDONALD : This probably requires a degree of humility from all of us, you know, reflecting on what we've done – PRIME MINISTER: Of course. MACDONALD: Are you doing that yourself? Like, I know you've acknowledged all sides of politics have got a responsibility here. But are there things you reflect on and think, you know what, I didn't do that well, I wasn't as civil as I could be, I wish I said that – could you, could you share? PRIME MINISTER : Absolutely. I'm not perfect and haven't been. I've been in public life for 30 years. And one of the things that drives me is don't try to be better than everyone else or someone else, try to be better than you were yesterday. That's something that as a person, I think we all should strive to grow. And certainly I've made mistakes, as have people right across different political parties. We can all do better and we all need to strive to do better. MACDONALD : I mean, your office has been accused of putting out a dirt sheet on Helen Haines. Is that something that you regret? PRIME MINISTER : Let's be very clear, because apparently it's been published somewhere. It's a list of funding asks from Helen Haines, just showing that people of integrity stand up for their electorate. No personal criticism of Helen. Helen is a strong advocate for her electorate. She's advocated for funding for projects in her electorate. MACDONALD : I know you do have to move on, Prime Minister. Very briefly, just in terms of civil discourse, right now on another media outlet in Sydney, a two hour platform is being given to Ben Roberts-Smith, the accused war criminal, all while the former soldier is on bail awaiting trial, facing multiple war crimes charges. Is giving him a two-hour public platform like that in this moment contributing to better, healthier, more civil public discourse? PRIME MINISTER : I have no intention of commenting on something that is the subject of legal action. Mr. Roberts-Smith, like everyone else, is entitled to a presumption of innocence, but they are legal processes that need to be allowed to take their course without political interference. MACDONALD : Prime Minister, we appreciate your time as always. Thank you very much. PRIME MINISTER : Thank you.
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