RAF EPSTEIN, HOST : The Prime Minister Anthony Albanese joins us on the line. Good morning, PM. ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER : Good morning, Raf. Good to be with you. EPSTEIN : Have you spoken to Helen Haines or Helen Haines’ family recently, yesterday or today? PRIME MINISTER : I spoke with Helen's husband Phil, just on Monday night and Helen Haines remains in a critical condition there at The Alfred Hospital. S...
RAF EPSTEIN, HOST : The Prime Minister Anthony Albanese joins us on the line. Good morning, PM. ANTHONY ALBANESE, PRIME MINISTER : Good morning, Raf. Good to be with you. EPSTEIN : Have you spoken to Helen Haines or Helen Haines’ family recently, yesterday or today? PRIME MINISTER : I spoke with Helen's husband Phil, just on Monday night and Helen Haines remains in a critical condition there at The Alfred Hospital. She was flown there obviously for the emergency surgery that's taken place. She does have critical injuries and we continue to engage and reach out to the family for whatever it is that they need. As well as a community that's really going through a traumatic period. This was not something that they would have anticipated and is a shock, I think, to all. I spoke with the hero yesterday as well, who's remarkably humble – EPSTEIN : Ricky the barber. PRIME MINISTER : Ricky the barber. He's quite remarkable. And from Ricky's Chops, just a couple of doors down. For him at this terrible, tragic time, the fact that the best of the Australian character was on display there. Someone racing in to help, not worrying about their own safety, but just wanting to help their fellow Australian. EPSTEIN : Yeah, Ricky's Chops is the name of the shop, if you haven't cottoned onto that by now. Prime Minister, do you consider this to be political violence? PRIME MINISTER : It clearly is a violent incident. The motivation, of course, the alleged perpetrator has now been charged. He hasn't been named, by the way, named in the media, but not by the police. And so the motivation – he underwent the interview process yesterday afternoon, it was extensive. I'll allow the police to do their job. Quite clearly though, from what we know is that this was something that was targeted at Helen. Now, the motivation is unknown at this point in time. And certainly it's a reminder that the world is a more dangerous and divided place than it was a generation ago. But I think that Australians do want to see their politicians be able to go about their business, to be able to get something from the back of their car, for goodness sake. But they also want to see them be able to go to community events, to go to shops, to engage with them. That's fundamental to our democratic process. That we're available, and Helen Haines was the best of that. She was so respected, admired and loved in her electorate because of her determination – EPSTEIN : And they're the people finding it so tough. Yeah, PM, I just wanted to, I wanted to ask this question, you don't need to tell me the answer in some ways, but there's a lot of the media trawling through the alleged perpetrator's social media. Do you know if the intelligence agencies have made an assessment of his social media feed? I'm not asking you to tell me what the assessment is, but do you know if they have been looking? Have intelligence agencies looked at his social media feed? PRIME MINISTER : Of course. They go about their job very professionally and that goes to a full analysis. We are engaged with the counter-terrorism task force, that of course involves the security agencies, specifically ASIO, but they have access to other agencies as well, including the Australian Signals Directorate, for example. But the taskforce consists of ASIO, the Federal Police and the State Police. The investigations being led by Victoria Police and it was Victoria Police that last night laid the charges through the Victoria Police Security Investigation Unit. EPSTEIN : Do you know if he was known to the AFP and ASIO before this week? PRIME MINISTER : I'll allow the officials to go through that information. I've received, obviously we get briefings, and myself and the Premier had an extensive briefing yesterday. They'll continue to go through a full analysis. At this stage, certainly, it was not clear what the motivation of this was. EPSTEIN : Prime Minister, you've said a number of times in recent years we've got to turn the temperature down. Isn't, it's a good sentiment that I think most people back. However, isn't the problem that when politicians say that they don't honestly believe they're the worst offenders. Like, in your heart of hearts, you don't think Labor's the worst offender when it comes to political rhetoric? Isn't that the difficulty of you delivering that message? PRIME MINISTER : I don't think it diminishes the message to say that people engage in politics and all of us from time to time can engage in partisan ways. We have a Westminster system that's very competitive and we put ideas out there. But it is the case, I think, across the board, that we all have a responsibility to turn the temperature down. It is something that I have spoken about on countless occasions – EPSTEIN : But you don't think your side is the real problem, do you? PRIME MINISTER : I don't think anyone is immune from that message. My side, every side included. We all have to recognise that politics has got more aggressive. I think the particular impact on women in politics, I think have got a different form of vilification and aggression towards them as well – EPSTEIN : Female politicians definitely cop it worse in your mind? PRIME MINISTER : Yes, there's no question about that. And the nature of it can often be sexualised. I mean, threats of rape, unfortunately, something that most women parliamentarians can tell you they have received – EPSTEIN: Most? PRIME MINISTER: And that is shocking. That is shocking. I participated in a phone call yesterday, or a Teams meeting was held yesterday of women members of our Caucus who were particularly shaken by the events that have occurred with Helen. And today there's a security briefing at 11am this morning for parliamentarians across the spectrum with the security agencies. That's something that has regularly happened and certainly at this point in time, of course, everyone's first thoughts remain absolutely with Helen Haines and hoping for the best outcome possible – EPSTEIN: Can I just tackle – PRIME MINISTER: – what is a very serious incident. EPSTEIN : I just want to try and tackle the taking the temperature down in this way. Yesterday the Premier, Ben Carroll, said to me, ‘we've got to call it out when people say all politicians are corrupt and the system is rigged’. The difficulty is it's so subjective taking the temperature down. For some people, the system's rigged, I need to be able to say that I really don't trust most politicians, that, like, that's what I want to say in my political free speech. It's very difficult to take the temperature down when we have such deep disagreement, isn’t it? PRIME MINISTER : It is difficult, but it's certainly not impossible. One of the things that we as Australians have been proud of is that when we see political violence elsewhere, we've taken pride and comfort in the idea that our democracy is different. And overwhelmingly it is. It is different from what we've seen in a range of countries overseas, including in democracies. By and large, we're able to have disagreement and to do it in a respectful way, but of course we can all do better. And I do think that it is just a fact that the impact of social media, algorithms work to drive people towards anger. And even in mainstream media, the headlines that are generated are aimed at getting clicks and therefore more dramatic than is necessary, is something that's driven by a financial incentive, essentially. And so we do have – EPSTEIN : The media organisations think you're just saying that because they like picking holes in your plans. PRIME MINISTER : Have a look at what media looks like today and what it looked like when I was elected three decades ago. And the fact is that it is different. It is different because of online and because of the way that it occurs. There's far more, far more commentary and far less news. And the way that politics is conducted, Look, I think overwhelmingly – EPSTEIN : Can I be brutal, PM? You saying that to the media, it sounds like you believe it. Do you think it has any impact? I mean, they're going to keep on writing and people are going to keep on printing what they're going to print. Does it matter if you say that? PRIME MINISTER : People should be allowed to have proper scrutiny, it is an important part of our democracy and the media play an absolutely critical role in that. I don't hide from that whatsoever. But how the debate occurs needs to, people need to bear in mind the consequences. I think overwhelmingly, for example, that the idea that all politicians are corrupt, that you raise – overwhelmingly, people go into politics for the right reasons. They go in to make a difference for the sort of country that they want to see. Now, they come at that from different perspectives, of course, but overwhelmingly – EPSTEIN: We're in a difficult place, PM. People don't trust you when you say that. That's the whole difficulty, isn't it? They don't trust you when you say most people go into politics for the right reasons? PRIME MINISTER : Well, I can just assert my experience and my views, which are very strong. And I have friends right across the Parliament. Yes, we need to recognise there's a great deal of disillusionment, but then this is something as well that the whole world is grappling with. What we see is less trust in our institutions as a whole – EPSTEIN: Yes. PRIME MINISTER: This isn't just about politics, it's about media. It's about the fact that we used to have much more common experience that we talked about. And with that breakdown is something that – me raising it is talking about it, I hope there is talk about it, and people, of course, question what I'm saying, but engage in a way that is constructive. Because I don't want to see a situation in which we can't have respectful disagreement. And you can disagree with someone without challenging whether you, for example, love your country. I think Angus Taylor loves Australia. I think Matt Canavan, who I've spoken with both of them yesterday, Liberal Party Leader, National Party Leader, they love the country. And we should be able to recognise that and engage in areas where we do have differences. By all means, but do it in a way that doesn't, you know – let's argue about ideas without questioning people's motive or identity or faith. There's more than enough cruelty and hatred and violence in the world without us looking to add to it. And I believe that we do need more respect. We do need more kindness – EPSTEIN : What about in the Chamber, Prime Minister? PRIME MINISTER : – more understanding – EPSTEIN : A lot of people bring up with me two things: campaign ads, they're really negative. Number two, Question Time. You guys tear strips off each other at Question Time. A lot of people point to that as hypocrisy. Politicians want to bring the temperature down, but they raised the temperature in Question Time. Is that a fair criticism? PRIME MINISTER : Of course it is. And we could all do better. I don't exclude myself or any political party. This isn't a partisan comment – EPSTEIN : But you and I know what Question Time's gonna be like. Might not be like that next week. It'll be that, you know, it'll be that by the end of the week, won't it? It'll be just the same. PRIME MINISTER : It can be competitive without going to the extremes of attacking someone's motive. We can have a legitimate debate about housing policy in Australia and about the impact of the changes on negative gearing and capital gains tax. We can have that debate without resorting to personal attacks. It's about ideas and about the way that the country goes forward. There are genuine differences in our political system. That's a good thing, that there are differences and that there's debate. And quite often one of the things that comes from that debate is commonality. It's consensus. There have been debates in this country, for example, about marriage equality that were incredibly divisive and rancorous and caused a great deal of personal hurt in many cases. But guess what? When it got done, the country moved on. It didn't undermine anyone's marriage who was already married – EPSTEIN: I hear where you’re coming from – PRIME MINISTER: And we now, we now have something that's just taken for granted. I don't think anyone's going to go to the next election saying they're going to undo marriage equality. EPSTEIN : Well, there might be some candidates. PM. Just before you go, I just wanted to address one other issue and this is in relation to the terrible events, the terrible events on Monday night. Excuse me. There's a text here, PM – ‘we're ignoring the elephant in the room. Mental health. All of these things are worth looking at. So, many of the issues of violence are due to lack of mental health support in this country’. That's from Carissa. Do we need another look at mental health, especially in the regions? PRIME MINISTER : We’re continuing to look at these issues. We've established Medicare Mental Health Clinics around Australia. We continue to engage. Mental health is a major issue in terms of provision of services, particularly in regional Australia. And so, yes, this is one of the issues that needs to be dealt with. It's not clear the impact, whether, or the extent to which that was an issue on Monday. But mental health is something that we are very engaged with and one of the reasons why we have our under 16 social media ban, for example, is directly in response to the rise in mental health issues amongst young Australians. EPSTEIN : PM, I appreciate you giving us your time this morning. PRIME MINISTER : Thanks very much, Raf.
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